Episode 61 - ADHD or Perimenopause? The Hidden Symptoms Women Miss for Decades

What if the brain fog, memory slips, overwhelm, and emotional ups and downs you’ve blamed on “getting older”…weren’t aging at all?

In this episode of Grandma Has ADHD, Jami sits down with UK-based author and menopause expert Michelle Rowlinson for a raw, funny, and incredibly validating conversation about ADHD in midlife, perimenopause, and why so many women spend decades thinking it's just them.

Together, they swap stories, compare symptoms, and unpack why women over 40 and 50 are suddenly discovering ADHD—sometimes right alongside perimenopause. From misdiagnoses to masking, burnout, emotional spirals, and the lifelong feeling of being “too much,” this conversation hits home for so many women navigating this season of life.

Michelle also shares her journey from seven years of unexplained symptoms (heart palpitations, insomnia, weight gain, panic attacks, and even memory lapses so scary she wondered if she had dementia) to discovering perimenopause and writing her bestselling book You, Me, Conquering Perimenopause and Menopause.

Whether you’re diagnosed, questioning, or simply curious, this episode will help you feel seen, understood, and way less alone.

If you enjoyed this episode…Please follow, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear they’re not alone.

ADHD doesn’t have an age limit—and neither does understanding yourself better. 💛

Resources & Links Mentioned:

• Michelle’s Podcast: Menopause: The Real Deal (Spotify & Apple)
• Michelle’s Book: You, Me, Conquering Perimenopause and Menopause — available on Amazon
• Michelle’s website: panaceapaws.co.uk
• Jami’s Book: This Explains So Much: Understanding Undiagnosed ADHD by Jami Shapiro — available on Amazon
• Jami’s Website: jamishapiro.me — Join the Black Friday Workshop— the most money you will ever save on Black Friday

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Grandma Has ADHD! We hope Jami's journey and insights into ADHD shed light on the unique challenges faced by older adults. Stay tuned for more episodes where we’ll explore helpful resources, share personal stories, and provide guidance for those navigating ADHD. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with friends who might benefit. Remember, Make the rest of your life the best of your life.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Why ADHD symptoms in women often hide "in plain sight"
• 3:00 The two most common times women get diagnosed with ADHD
• 5:00 Jami’s story: discovering ADHD at 45 while juggling divorce, a business, and motherhood
• 7:00 How clutter, chronic disorganization, and fibromyalgia tie into ADHD
• 9:00 Michelle’s 7-year nightmare of perimenopause symptoms that doctors couldn’t explain
• 12:00 Her book going bestseller overnight — and why it resonated with so many women
• 15:00 Why complicated diets don’t work when you have an ADHD brain
• 16:00 The role hormones play in worsening ADHD symptoms
• 18:00 PMDD, PMS, chronic pain, and why ADHD women are more sensitive
• 19:00 Masking, burnout, and why socializing drains neurodivergent women
• 25:00 Jami’s take on aging, self-acceptance, and giving yourself grace
• 28:00 The wild link between the Salem Witch Trials and undiagnosed ADHD
• 33:00 The lifelong guilt ADHD women carry: being “too much,” forgetting things, not finishing tasks
• 37:00 Michelle’s recent autism diagnosis and the emotions that followed
• 44:00 Why older adults are still told “ADHD isn’t a thing”
• 47:00 What women should know if they’re wondering whether they have ADHD
• 50:00 How ADHD and perimenopause intersect—and why this stage can still be empowering

Transcript

[00:00:00] Have you ever thought, is this just me? When struggling to stay organized, start tasks, or manage time, for those of us over 50, these challenges might not be just aging. They could be ADHD hiding in plain sight for decades. I'm Jami Shapiro, host of Grandma has ADHD, and I'm building a community where your experiences matter.

Whether you are diagnosed, questioning or simply curious. You are not alone. Our Facebook group is filled with vibrant understanding. People over 50 who share their stories, strategies, and yes, even their struggles with plenty of laughter along the way. Ready to find your [00:01:00] people. Join our 

growing grandma has ADHD Facebook community. Please like and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and share it with someone who might need to hear. They're not alone because ADHD doesn't have an age limit and neither does understanding yourself better. Together, we're changing the conversation about ADHD after 50 come be part of the story.

Jami Shapiro: I am so excited to be talking to you, Michelle Rowlinson, who is in England. She is the author of Panacea Paws and has her own podcast. And when we were speaking, we both agreed that we should interview each other on each other's podcast. So both of.

England. She is the author of Panacea Paw and has her own podcast. And when we were speaking, we both agreed that we should interview each other on each other's podcast, so both of us are trying something different. When you have an ADHD brain, thankfully you get to pivot easily and we thought, because our conversation on the phone was so good, we would pause it and bring it to you because we both have so much to share in [00:02:00] our respective areas.

So did I, did I start that well for us, Michelle? 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yes, definitely. Definitely. 

Jami Shapiro: Okay. Okay. Do you want me to ask you some questions or you 

Michelle Rowlinson: Go ahead. We'll just kind of bounce off 

Jami Shapiro: each 

Michelle Rowlinson: other. 

Jami Shapiro: Okay. So, so how we got involved is it, for those of you who listen to the grandma has ADHD podcast and for those of you who are joining us from Michelle's.

Podcast welcome. I host the grandma has ADHD podcast and what's really for women over 50 who are discovering ADHD. And some of us have been diagnosed and some of us are questioning and some of us totally see it and we just never knew that that's what it was. And so it's a whole new conversation to ADHD and for many of us over 50.

It's just a whole new way of looking at ourselves. And there are two times that a woman is most likely to be diagnosed. One is when she has a child diagnosed, as was the case for me when the psychiatrist was evaluating my child Will. And I was like, I'm answering more yeses for [00:03:00] me then for will, do I have it?

Having no idea. And of course the answer was yes. And the other time is when a woman enters perimenopause. So what a natural conversation to be having with someone who is an expert on menopause. 

Michelle Rowlinson: No thank you. And obviously you've, you've written a book on this as well, but if we kind of strip it right back, you've said obviously when your child was being diagnosed, but were there sort of any traits or moments like in your life when you sort of went, hang on, this might be ADHD?

Or was it literally just when your child was getting diagnosed? 

Jami Shapiro: Oh, that's a great question actually. No. So when I was married, my ex-husband would I call him, my wasband would accuse me of having ADHD, and I had a brother who had been diagnosed in the eighties and had to be put on Ritalin. Couldn't sit still and was the kid bouncing off the walls.

And so in my mind, as it is for many people, ADHD is that [00:04:00] hyper little boy jumping off the wall. So when he said I had it, I'm like, no, I don't. And of course when I discovered that it was not just those hyperactive little boys, then it was very easy to see that I had had it my entire life. But, you know, didn't, didn't recognize it.

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. And this is it. I mean, I was probably more. Typically boy symptoms 'cause I was the one bouncing off the walls. Literally even in nursery, you'd be lucky if I'd completed one thing where all these kids were, you know, each table where you, you make something and all these children would come out with armfuls of things that they'd made.

And you were lucky if I'd sort of completed just one of them. So it was, it was sort of more obvious with me, but with. Other, the women. Why do you think it's like so many sort of go under sort of the radar for so long and mainly especially with, with sort of women? 

Jami Shapiro: Yeah. So first of all, I have [00:05:00] to, I'm distracted because we are recording in on a different platform.

We decided to use Michelle's and the Sun is streaming in my normal platform place and I'm holding the phone, so I need to just address that. And I don't know about your podcast, Michelle, but I don't edit these things because I've decided that when I keep it really real for people and they get to see that you can be imperfect in the world because perfectionism is one of the biggest problems for, you know, people with ADHD is that.

If we can't get it perfect, then we shouldn't do it. So I just wanna address, to me it's the elephant in the room. 'cause I of course can see myself, but I wanna go, I actually remembered what you asked me. So this is a really, this is actually how I got into this whole thing. So my child was in middle school and when, and this was a little more than 10 years ago when I realized that I had ADHD.

So at this time, I'm 45 years old. I have three kids. I'm going through a divorce and I'm starting a business. So I'm like, okay, I'm 45, I have ADHD, no big deal. You know, I've lived 45 years. I graduated college with high honors. So I, you know, so I, I was able to focus. I mean, that was, you know, how I felt about [00:06:00] it.

And I was actually because of the business. So I, I own a business in San Diego, California called Silver Linings Transitions, and I started it as part of. The National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers, and that, that's important and relevant to the story because it, it is an organization that goes in and we used to predominantly help seniors when they were making a move and we would handle all the logistics of the move, all the packing, all the unpacking, coordinating all of the different people involved, you know, helping make the decisions about what people are gonna keep or not keep.

Which if you listen to that, there's a lot of executive functioning going on in the work that we were doing. So I am starting this business and I'm starting to see a lot of people's homes that remind me of my mom's home, which has a lot of clutter in it. And in fact, my mother's clutter. Was always a source of conflict for the two of us because my mom just kept accumulating and, and I used to do presentations on downsizing and rightsizing and [00:07:00] I would tell the audience, I come from a family with hoarding disorder because if you had seen my mom's home and you had seen the stacks of everything, you would've said, yeah, this woman's a hoarder.

Which we don't use that word by the way, but I was listening to a podcast because I was be getting some training on organizing and I had joined. The ICD, which is the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. So that's another thing that anybody with ADHD or even not, I mean people that just can help with people who struggle with clutter or chronic disorganization.

So I was listening to a podcast and I heard the the interview mentioned that fibromyalgia and migraine headaches were common in people with ADHD. I just like paused and I'm like, oh my gosh. My mom has had unexplained migraine headaches and fibromyalgia as long as I can remember with no explanation.

And so I called my mom and I said, and she was 76 at the time, and I said, mom, I don't think you have hoarding disorder. I think you have ADHD. Well. My father was [00:08:00] hyperactive and my brother was hyperactive again. So that was my version of, of ADHD. So sure enough I start to learn more about A-D-H-D I end up becoming an ADHD coach.

You know, because when you are and someone with ADHD, you take the fixation and you just keep going with it, right? So I think the reason that it's been missed is that we all have this misconception that it's the only, the hyperactive little boy. We have a, you know, generations of women that, you know, we were not a behavior issue because we internalized our struggles.

I mean, we masked so well. We had perfectionism, but we were burning out because it was just exhausting. In fact, on in my book, and I'm just gonna put a quick plugin, it's called, this Explains So Much and if you can see the picture of it, they're different pictures that represent ADHD to me. So one is the clutter.

One is the disco ball with the brain that just constantly going, when's the chocolate chip cookie? Because a lot of us crave sugar, but then the H has a girdle on it. And I don't know if you ever wore a girdle, but they're like having to suck it all in and then being able to like let it go and, and [00:09:00] that's the freedom of like taking off the mask, taking off the girdle.

And so I think that we are finally understanding that ADHD isn't just hyperactive little boys and we're realizing that we have. Whole generations of people. And that was part of how we came to this conversation, which I wanna share later. So remember to remind me about the Salem Witch Trials. That's a really key conversation for us to have, but I wanna talk to you about how you got involved in, in your work with menopause.

So give me that story. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah, so basically I was going through seven years of what I can only describe as absolute hell. Where I had no idea what was going on. One minute things seemed okay, and then I was putting on weight. I put on like 20 kilos in weight. My hair was falling out, acne, heart palpitations.

But it was more the, the insomnia and the feeling like I had dementia. That was the worst part. 

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Where I would literally [00:10:00] look at my, my diary at work and get to the waiting room. I couldn't remember the name of my patient which was fine if I'd already treated them, 'cause obviously I wouldn't forget their face, but I couldn't remember their name and I'd have to like pretend with the receptionist going, oh, I just need to check something.

And they must have thought I was absolutely bonkers. But. And every time I went to the GP, they were just sort of saying, oh, you're just stressed, depressed. Cardiologist offered me beta blockers for the heart palpitations, which thankfully I was like, well, will I die without them? They're like, no. I said, well, then I won't take them.

And it all just came about where basically I had a massive panic attack in a supermarket over whether I was gonna get the wrong cereal. It was literally that. Stupid looking back, but it was like, it was, honestly, I felt like I just didn't know what to do and I had to run out the shop, and that's when I just sat in the car going, this, this is not normal.

This there [00:11:00] has to be a reason. Or is it dementia? Is it something serious? And that was when I sort of got on Mr. Google and found the word perimenopause that I'd never even heard of, even as a health professional who had done a women's health placement. 

Jami Shapiro: Wow. 

Michelle Rowlinson: It was all pregnancy and prolapses, no mention of menopause.

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: We were told women 40 plus were more predisposed to frozen shoulder tendinopathy, joint pain, but not why or not the significance of like. Menopause anyway. And yeah, and that was when I then did more research, got more into sort of anti-inflammatory diets, which then I realized ingredients were quite often, especially for keto or more American or expensive Amazon, or words that are really long that if they were putting me off cooking and I love to cook, it was like, wow, this is gonna put many women off.

So that's where I then. I [00:12:00] went on to write my book Yumi Conquering Perimenopause and Menopause, that's got advice on intermittent fasting, keto, Mediterranean with recipes. And it just went bang, literally. I didn't think really it'd do a lot. I thought, well, it just helps even a few women. That would be great.

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: And it went bestseller in like hours. That's 

Jami Shapiro: amazing. That is amazing. 

Michelle Rowlinson: I know. And then women start asking me for advice and I was like, holy crap, my lip, I better get qualified at this. Ah, and it, 

Jami Shapiro: okay, so tell me again the name, the name of your book. 'cause is it you, me, 

Michelle Rowlinson: conquering perimenopause and menopause?

Jami Shapiro: You, me, conquering men, perimenopause and menopause. So I have to tell you, I actually, it was 2020 and I ended up with a frozen shoulder also, and I never even was told that it could be connected to perimenopause. And so, you know, there's, there's there, there's more and more information out there now even than there was five years ago.[00:13:00] 

But yeah. So I, first of all, I have to acknowledge that your book went a bestseller that quickly. That is. Unbelievable. And I think you were also telling me that you wrote it more in the UK because the ingredients are a little bit different than they are in the, in the us Was that part of it? 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah.

'cause I find keto, especially, it's been more Americans that have written advice about recipes. And so when you are Googling keto recipes, they generally are either expensive, Amazon or, or American. And I just wanted something that was more. Accessible and easy to follow for women all around the world because the, the ingredients I've used other than the change of name, like zucchini instead of COE and things like that, but generally the recipes, you can get them in supermarkets all around the world.

And that was, that was more the point I wanted everybody to be able to follow these diets with ease rather than going, oh, [00:14:00] this is so difficult, so. 

Jami Shapiro: So, speaking of following a diet we, we talked about the fact that we're ba we both have ADHD, right? So for me, if you give me too many ingredients, I'm gonna freak out and I'm not gonna do it.

You know? So how how does your book relate to someone with ADHD? Have you ever considered that? 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. Because I suppose it's one of the feedbacks I got was that it's very easy to read. 

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: So I have, I have had some women say they absolutely hate reading, which is funnily enough. Dyslexia is quite a common thing with ADHD, which is mm-hmm.

What I have as well. And I can't stand reading, which is why if you'd just said to me, you are gonna write a book, I'd be like, yeah. Right. Whatever. Mm-hmm. So I suppose that's why it's must have sort of come through where it's just very easy to read. Mm-hmm. And with the recipes, again, there's not that many ingredients.

So, so what, 

Jami Shapiro: what do you tell people to eat? What, what do you recommend? [00:15:00] Generally, I mean, I don't want, I want them to buy your book, but 

Michelle Rowlinson: yeah, it's sort of Whole Foods, so. Mm-hmm. It's non-processed really. It's especially sort of green leafy vegetables and non-processed meats, so the body knows how to digest, whether that's Mediterranean or whether that's keto.

It's just about having things that the body knows how to basically digest. 

Jami Shapiro: Right, right. Because we're putting crap into our bodies For sure. So, yeah. I think we talked a little bit about hormone replacement therapy in our conversation. Because I, yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, again, I have ADHD, so I can't always remember, but I remember where I was standing when we had the conversation.

I was standing in my closet talking to you. I think you were sick. Yes. Yeah. So see, but like and I, and I definitely, so I, I have found that HRT has been game changing for me. And I am, have always been anti-medication. I have a lot of anxiety and I always like scared of what I put into my body, but I got to the point that I couldn't even exercise because everything hurt and I [00:16:00] couldn't go to sleep through the night without getting up every two hours because my bladder just could not, I could not not go.

And so I've been on hormones for a little more than a year and I. Feel like myself, but I will say that I still am impacted by my ADHD more than I have been, you know, probably since childhood. And by the way, I am also a combined type ADHD. And so that means that I am hyperactive in my body and my brain is constantly spinning.

But I don't have it. The way that I would've been identified as a little boy. And I don't know, you know, I was always like, like peeling glue off my hands or doodling or doing something to be moving, but I wasn't the behavior issue that, you know, would've caused anyone to, to send me, to get evaluated as was the case for a lot of women.

I think again, we present really differently, but my ADHD has, has gotten worse with my so here's a, i I am not quite at the one year mark. So I'm not menopausal yet, but I think I'm [00:17:00] three months away. So, you know, the, the writing is on the wall, but definitely my ADHD has been impacted, and that was one of the reasons I also wanted to talk to you because this is the time that we're gonna start to see more and more issues with our hormone levels.

Michelle Rowlinson: Definitely. And we are, as you know, we're, we're more hormone sensitive. Mm-hmm. So this is why many ADHD women suffer with P-M-S, P-M-D-D. They're usually quite big red flags. That it might be a woman that doesn't even know that she's ADHD. Yeah. But usually if she's suffering with severe PMS or PMDD, that's not always, but usually quite a, a big sign that maybe there's some neurodiversity going on.

But but definitely. 

Jami Shapiro: I have to interrupt you for this because I just had Dr. Michael Lens on my podcast who talks about, he wrote a book on fibromyalgia and chronic pain and ADHD. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's probably related to the PMDD, which is, I don't know what it stands for, but I know it's more extreme periods, which I know I had, and so [00:18:00] did my kids so debilitating that they couldn't go to school because the cramping was so bad.

And I think we are so much more. Sensitive in every area that of course we would be more sensitive to cramping and to mood swings. So that's just my, my nickel opinion. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Definitely. And I think one thing I've noticed since being particularly since my hysterectomy, and that's the, the burnout from masking.

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: I suppose I didn't even realize that I was doing the masking. I, I just kind of, it wasn't until really I started sort of really looking at myself more so because of what was going on and why was I getting these burnouts. And it was always after like networking events or talking to like people that I, that I don't know.

So, and it's not that I'm not being myself, I suppose I'm just more conscious. Of myself. So I suppose that uses a lot of energy, but I think that's definitely one thing I've noticed is that the, the [00:19:00] burnout after events is a lot, lot worse than it, than it used to be. 

Jami Shapiro: You know what? I have noticed exactly the same thing and I used to have no problem going to things and now I realize that I'm usually fine to go or I'm need, say this anymore.

I used to be fine to go and then I would need to, I'd be one of the first persons to leave and I needed to have a role. I needed to be, you know, checking people in or I was in high school, I was the editor of photography, so I had some purpose and some role for being there, or I was the person that was doing the dishes at friends' houses 'cause I needed to people please and feel useful.

And, you know, so I am also with the, the ADHD knowledge that I have. I, I now recognize too that I was also kind of trying to present myself, like I had it together, which, you know, again, holding that girdle, right? And then, and then just letting it go. So I, but it's just for me, the a, the awareness that I have of ADHD, probably the way that you have of perimenopause and menopause, it's just, it's life changing in the way that.

I live my life. And here's a great example. So [00:20:00] as I shared with you, my book just came out, so I was like, sprint to the finish line. I had a couple conferences I was speaking at. And then this past week, I, I just, my body just had enough and I thought I was getting sick. I was supposed to have a big I, I wrote a book party and invite people over and I canceled it.

And I literally sat on the couch and just, I let myself just stop because. That would be something I would've never let myself do. But you know, we can't just go, go, go, go, go. Always like there. There's a, a price. There's gotta be an ebb and a flow. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah, a hundred percent. And definitely I'd say I've started sort of doing those boundaries of going, no, I need to just look after, look after me.

But one thing. Do you think that there's like, still like a, a stigma around women wanting sort of a diagnosis later in life? Like they're just looking for excuses or being dramatic, or is this a [00:21:00] trend that I've heard, you know, why are women suddenly and it just feels like maybe there's like now a, a stigma around it?

What do you think?

Hey there. Grandma has ADHD listeners. I'm your host, Jami Shapiro. And do I have some exciting news? My book, this explains so much understanding. Undiagnosed, ADHD is now available on Amazon. My mom, Vicki and I wrote this together. She's the original grandma who inspired this whole journey. I'm calling this the Perfect is the Enemy of Done version.

If I waited until it was perfect, you'd never be holding it in your hands. This book is for us, those of us who spent our whole lives feeling like we were too much or never quite enough. Inside, you'll find why. You've always felt [00:22:00] different. ADHD traits, you didn't even know were ADHD traits. How to declutter without the shame spiral, and so much more about thriving with ADHD after 50.

Here is the exciting part. Everyone who purchases the book gets free access to a virtual book club that my mom and I are hosting. So mark your calendars for Sunday, October 26th at 3:30 PM Pacific, 6:30 PM Eastern. We are going to share stories, laugh about our A DHD moments and create that safe space.

Where you can finally take off that girdle when you read the book, you'll know what I mean? And just be yourself. Here's what to do. Head to Amazon's search. This explains so much. Jami Shapiro. Grab your copy, paperback or ebook and visit grandma has adhd.com to take the ADHD quiz and get your book club registration link.

Understanding your ADHD isn't adding to your plate. It's finally understanding why your plate has always felt so [00:23:00] full. I cannot wait to see you at the book club and hear your stories, and if the book resonates, please leave an Amazon review as well as for this podcast to help other women find their light bulb moments.

Thank you for being part of this community. This book exists because of all of you.

Ever wondered why helping a loved one declutter feels like speaking different languages? I did, especially with my mom. It wasn't until I founded Silver Linings Transitions helping San Diego seniors organize and move for over a decade that I discovered why we all experienced clutter differently. And for those of us with ADHD, it's a whole other world.

If you are listening in the San Diego area and feeling stuck with moving. Paperwork, photos or home organization. Our [00:24:00] team at Silver Linings Transitions gets it. We understand ADHD's unique challenges and we won't just help you get organized. We'll create sustainable systems that. Finally stick Schedule a consultation with our team today at 7 6 0 5 2 2 1 6 2 4.

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Hey there. Grandma has ADHD listeners. I'm your host, Jami Shapiro. And do I have some exciting news? My book, this explains so much understanding. Undiagnosed, ADHD is now available on Amazon. My mom, Vicki and I wrote this together. She's the original grandma who inspired this whole journey. [00:25:00] I'm calling this the Perfect is the Enemy of Den version.

If I waited until it was perfect, you'd never be holding it in your hands. This book is for us, those of us who spent our whole lives feeling like we were too much or never quite enough. Inside, you'll find why. You've always felt different. ADHD traits, you didn't even know were ADHD traits. How to declutter without the shame spiral, and so much more about thriving with ADHD after 50.

Here is the exciting part. Everyone who purchases the book gets free access to a virtual book club that my mom and I are hosting. So mark your calendars for Sunday, October 26th at 3:30 PM Pacific, 6:30 PM Eastern. We are going to share stories, laugh about our A DHD moments and create that safe space.

Where you can finally take off that girdle when you read the book, you'll know what I mean? And just be yourself. Here's what to do. Head to Amazon's search. This [00:26:00] explains so much. Jamie Shapiro. Grab your copy, paperback or ebook and visit grandma has adhd.com to take the ADHD quiz and get your book club registration link.

Understanding your ADHD isn't adding to your plate. It's finally understanding why your plate has always felt so full. I cannot wait to see you at the book club and hear your stories, and if the book resonates, please leave an Amazon review as well as for this podcast to help other women find their light bulb moments.

Thank you for being part of this community. This book exists because of all of you.

Jami Shapiro: Yes, thank you for asking. That's gonna lead into the Salem Witch question. So it doesn't help that it's called Attention deficit hyperactivity Disorder or that it used to be called Minimal Brain Dysfunction. [00:27:00] And we know we all thought of the little boy who was pulled out in class.

And we didn't identify the full spectrum of ADHD. And again, I think it's completely misnamed. You're also dealing with not so much the boomers, but the silent generation. I know my, my mother would say that, you know, she was being treated for anxiety and her, and depression her whole life. Which by the way, that was some, something that was being treated, but it was masking what was really going on, which was.

The ADHD and had the ADHD been treated properly, who knows what would've happened to the anxiety and the depression. So, but my grandfather like, was adamant that my mother not discussed that she was in therapy. Like you just weren't allowed to discuss things. You held it together. And so that's a.

Part of the problem is that it's been mislabeled. And then because we didn't recognize the full spectrum, we only thought of the troublemaker. But I, this is, this was the part that got me so excited about being on each other's podcast. And that was when I was doing research for my book about the history of ADHD.

To your point, is it just now here? No, it's been here all along. I was listening to a [00:28:00] podcast with do you know who Jay Shetty is? 

Michelle Rowlinson: No. 

Jami Shapiro: He's amazing. He's amazing. He's one of the top health podcasters, at least in the US. But he had Dr. Daniel Aman on who is a brain health. I, and I don't know his title, but he is, it's MD and he was actually talking about ADHD on the podcast and he said, you know, you can hear biblical mentions.

You can, you can go to, you know, look online, Google, Mr. Google, and ask, you know, what? What biblical narratives or narrative characters or narratives might touch on ADHD symptoms or something like that. And so, you know, I get a whole list of all of these different character traits, but what really got me was when I started to learn about the Salem Witch trials.

And if you look at why were women, you know, persecuted, first of all, the majority of women to be persecuted during the Salem Witch trials. Women in their forties. Michelle, what happens to women in their forties? 

Michelle Rowlinson: Oh, I wonder, could it be perimenopause? 

Jami Shapiro: Correct. And so they, they could not [00:29:00] live, you know, with the Puritan values and they could not sit still in church and they were fidgety.

And this was the reason that all of these women were persecuted. So, you know, you have this history and then if you think back to our parents and grandparents and in fact this is such a good, encapsulates the story so well. So I have a. Friend who's in the health care field here in San Diego, and he was telling me that when he was in his mid, mid forties, he was convinced he had early onset dementia.

So he goes to the doctor because he's got all the Ty. The typical, he is misplacing items. He's got brain fog, he can't remember names, and he does a full day workup and they come back and they say, you don't have dementia, you have ADHD. And then he realizes that he has a child with ADHD and is. Sibling with ADHD and a niece or nephew with ADHD.

So I said to him, okay, so which of your parents do you think had ADHD? He said, neither of my parents had ADHD. Well, we know that ADHD is highly, highly heritable. And I said, Dan, did either of your [00:30:00] parents smoke? And he said, oh yeah, my mom smoked like a, like, you know, smoked like a chimney, I think was what he said.

But so back in World War I, cigarettes were introduced to the troops to calm them down. So they were basically. Smoking, they're Ritalin and so we didn't see it. So there you go. It's been there. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. Oh no, definitely. And I've had similar conversations. Funny enough. Where we said, oh, about how, you know, when someone said, oh, why are we suddenly talking about perimenopause and things?

I said, well, actually women were put in asylums. 

Jami Shapiro: Yes. 

Michelle Rowlinson: And that was then when I went, do you know what? And it wouldn't surprise me if that was the reason that women were portrayed as witches. And there we go. You, 

Jami Shapiro: yeah. 

Michelle Rowlinson: You know, and it, it makes sense because we are suddenly. Acting differently. 

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Rowlinson: Outta character. 

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: And if back then, you know, if you are sort of more fidgety or [00:31:00] brain fog or acting like you are a bit doula, then maybe that was, you know, one of the reasons that also like talking more and, particularly with ADHD women, I think the hormones kind sometimes can sort of make a sort of bit more, bit more hyper.

And of course if women are, like you say, they didn't women back, back in the day. I think I even saw a contraption that used to sort of. Pull over a woman's head with her tongues, said because the husband or something said that she kept talking too much or something back in the middle Ages. It looked absolutely horrific.

Jami Shapiro: Well, I mean, when you, when you hear stories of, of how women were treated and, you know, just, I, I don't know. This is totally going off topic, but have you heard of the book, the Feminine Mystique? 

Michelle Rowlinson: No. 

Jami Shapiro: So it was a book that came out in the 1960s, and it was by Betty Friedan, and all of a sudden she was exposing how women wanted more than being housewives and mothers.

And they, you know, they [00:32:00] were not always satisfied. So women were coping with, you know, the Quaaludes and the Valium and the, you know, whatever they were taking back then. This is when, you know, anxiety meds came out because they, they just, they couldn't handle it anymore. Now all of a sudden they had, they had, they heard that they weren't alone.

And that's sort of actually how I feel about my book and also menopause. It's like finally we are, and I think that's the, one of the great things about the internet is that we, we are able to see ourselves in other people. And I also think this generation, for as many things as I don't like about the Gen Z and I.

I love the fact that they are stepping into who, who they are living unapologetically. You know, I don't know about your family or your, your world, but in my family, nobody was gay. You know, none of my cousins, we didn't think anybody was gay. And now all of my cousins, not all of them, but each, at least one of my aunts or uncles has a gay grandchild.

You know, I have a gay child. I'm now looking back at my cousin who passed, never married, never had kids. Ah, you know, so I think that. It's been there. It's been there, but now we're [00:33:00] allowed to express it and we have more knowledge. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Mm. Yeah. I think something else is that ADHD can also bring this sort of endless guilt.

Mm. So for not finishing things, for not remembering, for not being able to find your car keys. Mm-hmm. It always used be car keys. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or feeling like you're too much for people. Mm-hmm. I, and that's a big one. And I know like lots of my friends would joke, and it's not meant with any mouse, but sometimes like.

Say about how I talk a lot or talk loudly or talk a lot, you know, and I get it. I do. But it can sometimes make you feel like, oh, am I being a bit too much for people? Do I need to reign it in? How have you sort of learned to sort of manage or, or reframe that kind of self-talk so that you're not feeling like this guilt all the time?

Jami Shapiro: That is a great question and I also think that exactly what you've said is the reason that people with ADHD are more likely to have social anxiety. And I have absolutely been told Tone it [00:34:00] down, g Be Jami Light. Can you know, in fact, my book, I have to just tell you the subtitle, is for those who have too much, you know, the accumulation.

Feel too much or have been told they are too much. So, you know, I, I think because I've sort of become the ADHD poster child and I, and I also hear that it's, it's, it's an explanation and not an excuse. So I do, and I did actually have someone at a conference say that she knew I had ADHD. And I've been doing it with you too, because I kept interrupting and I wasn't listening.

So I think awareness is really important because that is valid, you know? And so, and I think as we mature, we're able to sort of pause. And so I think that awareness is important. But in terms of the guilt, I, I think and I was actually listening to another pod. Podcast. It's like recognition of what I have accomplished and, and sitting and being proud of it and honoring my, you know, my energy level like I told you about this weekend.

And so I think that has been really, really helpful. And again, as we, as we open the door to more of these [00:35:00] conversations and, you know, and it's just to say, hey. I, I just wanna acknowledge that you might be interrupting a little bit, and I know that you have ADHD, but just wanted to make you aware, like there's a way to say something because I think you and I both know that if we hear 10 positive things and one negative thing, we're gonna dwell on which one.

Negative. Like we're gonna 

Michelle Rowlinson: negative. Yeah. 

Jami Shapiro: Right. I mean that's, we, I didn't know we had a negativity bias and you know, again, because we were criticized most of our lives with, you know, why can't you get it together? Why can't you find your stuff? Why is your room a mess? You know, why do you keep quitting your classes?

You know? So I think that we have to start first with compassion for ourselves. And that's one of the things that has been really a big part of my podcast is like. You know, you have been codling it together your entire life. Like you didn't even know that you were building in accommodations for yourself and that's exactly what you were doing.

And, you know, our brains, I, I see the gifts of our brains and, you know, there's a lot of, you know, people call it talk toxic positivity. I'm not for one moment saying that ADHD is all positive. 'cause it is absolutely not. But it is [00:36:00] finding the things that are good about it and, and leaning into that versus.

Focusing on all of the things that we don't do well or we didn't finish. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I remember listening to quite a few friends, particularly the not finishing things or not remembering things. Were a couple of my friends, I remember listening to them and that was sort of the thing that used, but then they didn't know.

It was only years later that they sort of realized what was, what was sort of going on. But, and as I've said with the, with the ADHD side, it was always very, very obvious and I just didn't really ever mention it or just kind of, 'cause I didn't really feel like it, it mattered. I didn't really need a, a diagnosis until.

Obviously in after the hysterectomy and the hormone started having more, more of a play. But I think what shocked me more was the more I was kind of researching things that I started to suspect, well, maybe I am au autistic as well. I don't [00:37:00] know. Oh. And so I bit the bullet and got a an assessment which I finally had only a couple of weeks ago.

Hmm. And turns out that yes I am. And it hit me in quite an emotional way. 'cause it kind of, it was only when the assessor was saying stuff to me and it made a lot of sense. And you've sort of been open about that grief. Identity sort of crisis now I'm fi it's to me, I'm still me. It's fine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And I haven't really bothered mentioning it to, to really anybody, because at the end of the day it, it's, that side of things is manageable anyway. But how did it sort of show up for you after your sort of diagnosis of ADHD and, and what sort of helped you, again, sort of similar with the grief, but anything else that sort of helped you move through that as well?

Jami Shapiro: Well, so as I said, when I first found out, I'm like busy living, so I didn't, I didn't pay attention to what the impact of ADHD really was. And [00:38:00] it really wasn't until I took a class when I was getting my coaching certification with ADDCA. That's, that's the attention deficit disorder.

Coaching academy and there's a class called personal transformation. So there's one is simply, so you're just kind of learning the very boring ADHD, high level stuff. And, and I, there wasn't really much that I had learned, but when I went through the curriculum with other people who had ADHD, you know, when we were just, it was the first time that I had taken a class.

Understanding my brain with other people. And then we had, you know, peer groups where we were getting together weekly. And you know, when I heard other people and I heard their experiences, I realized the impact that ADHD really had throughout my life and. I just wanna share that I have a cousin who has a, a PhD in MAN Marriage and Family therapy who also has ADHD.

And we were talking about the book because she said, I never read also, but I'm now realizing how many areas [00:39:00] that ADHD impacts that I had no idea. So I do think, and that's one of the things I definitely touch on, is that grief and relief, especially for older adults who are discovering it and, you know.

There's a quote that I like by Maya Angelou, when you know better, you do better. And if you didn't know, how could you beat yourself up? I mean, how, you know? And, and if you now give yourself grace, because we all deserve that grace. And, you know, even my mom and my relationship, by the way, has transformed in a way that I, I would never have believed possible.

Because, because she was emotionally dysregulated, I was emotionally dysregulated. So much, and I, I, now, I have an empathy for my mother and I realize she didn't give me ADHD on purpose, just like I didn't give my children ADHD on purpose. And I will say that I'm very spiritually bent, and so I truly believe that I have ADHD because I'm meant to do something.

With that. And there are talents, you know, we are super creative. You know, we we're, we're able [00:40:00] to, you know, think outside the box, we're able to come up with solutions. Now, it's interesting, I don't know as much about autism and ADHD, but I have heard they play together frequently and that you have this one, you know, craving for structure and you need the routine.

And then you have the ADHD that says, oh, no, no, no, no, I wanna, I wanna party. Right? And I would love to explore an episode with you on, because this. Has come up quite a bit lately too, is a lot of people are hearing, I'm, I'm hearing more and more are learning that they have autism. So 

Michelle Rowlinson: yeah.

Yeah. I think that's where the burnout comes through the most is because I've got the auto, what I now know is the autism kind of fighting where, like you say, I like things in the right place. I like. Order. I like, like my house being clean and tidy and then I blink and I've like decided just to, oh, I know I'm gonna clear out my my wardrobe and I'm going to sort it all out.

And then I look and the whole bedroom is like a complete mess. And I'm like, but my other half came home the other week and I had [00:41:00] literally pulled some boxes out and I was like sorting through them and everything was everywhere. And he was like, okay. Right. One of those days again, I was like, yes. And then like the other side of me was going, right now I need to really get this all cleared away 'cause I can't live like this.

This has to be all sorted out. So it is constant. And this what the assessor was saying, that actually 'cause  the ADHD is a bit stronger because, that's why I'm more kind of on the, on the hyper and I'm combined as well. So I'm kind of, everything's sort of everywhere. But interestingly with my mum, she got diagnosed with chronic fatigue.

Jami Shapiro: Mm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: And 

Jami Shapiro: there a ding, ding, ding for you now. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. Well, the whole, the whole journey, we've actually, because of this. With what I'm doing now, we've realized that I hadn't put the, joined the dots for the ADHD at the time, but I had said to my mom the reason, 'cause I, I feel really bad because I knew she didn't have chronic fatigue, but I knew equally she [00:42:00] wasn't faking it.

But it was because she'd have good, and I dunno, it was just hard to explain why. But now I realize at the time, one, it was. Perimenopause that was causing a lot of the issues when she had this. Literally, she could barely get off the sofa some days. Mm. And I, and I was just a child. But then also, yeah, with the now realizing ADHD so we're trying to get hurt.

Diagnosed so she can sort of learn some coping strategies and whether a medication will, or, I mean, it's, it has helped. It's not for everybody. Mm-hmm. I'm not a medication type person, but I have to not, not the Ritalin side. I, it's the l Vance that I've started taking and it has really, really helped me with sort of focus.

' cause I just felt like I was constantly treading water and going around in circles. Sure. At that point, 

Jami Shapiro: I don't know about how it is ever in the [00:43:00] UK, but here a lot of physicians are not trained on ADHD and especially not in older adults. And so my mother's doctor just said, well, we don't even treat ADHD, which by the way isn't the case.

You have to find a doctor who has taken the time to understand it because again, they grew up in a time when we didn't recognize it in women. And I, and I do know, and I don't talk about medication. On, on my podcast much either even when I have a doctor, because I recognize that when you are aging, you're probably taking other medications for other age related issues.

And sometimes they don't mix with other medications. But, but I will say that one of the biggest things and one of my biggest passions is explaining the word Gerotranscendence. Have you heard of that before? 

Michelle Rowlinson: No, 

Jami Shapiro: so Eric Erickson was a famous sociologist in the US and he looked at the eight stages life stages, and they were, you know, the different from toddler in infancy to, you know, what we go through as we, as we age.

And when he and his [00:44:00] wife got into their eighties, he realized that he had not really discussed or discovered what happens then when, you know, when you're, you are coming to the end of your life. You know, so Gerotranscendence is about that reflection, looking at your life, the choices that you've made, your relationships, your regrets, and really be coming to peace with it.

And I think that when you understand that ADHD has been at play, then, like for instance, my mother did not graduate college. And my mother is very bright. And I remember when she was in her forties, she worked for a company that offered tuition reimbursement. I'm like, okay, you're not, you don't have kids at home anymore.

You've just gone through a divorce, perfect time to go to college. And my mom said, well, I can't focus. And I didn't, again, I didn't understand it then. And now I do. And so, you know, I think that that that acceptance of that ADHD and that understanding of that ADHD is going to help us. You know, complete our life.

And I, I [00:45:00] don't know also about the UK, but here there's so much anti-aging. There's anti, you know, the word is anti-aging. I'm like, no, I, I had cancer more than 20 years ago. 34 when I was diagnosed. You want to age, you know, that is what we want. Why are we saying anti-aging? So that's a whole other soap box that I'm on, but that is really where the intersection of my work really lives is, is, is living out with my ADHD and saying to older adults, Hey, this is what it is.

This explains so much. I mean, that was why that was the cover of my book. It does, it explains so much so. I don't even remember the question that you asked me, Michelle. 

Michelle Rowlinson: No, that's fine. I think again, with, with my mom, unfortunately, she's in Scotland and apparently her part of Scotland, they won't diagnose or assess diagnose ADHD in adults at all.

Even though another reason that many women have gone [00:46:00] without a diagnosis is also because it wasn't recognized in girls anyway, and all the assessments were based on boy traits, so mm-hmm. We would kind of miss Or 

Jami Shapiro: kids 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. 

Jami Shapiro: Right. Or, or kids. Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Rowlinson: So, and now it's just becoming more obvious. Mm-hmm. Or in my mom's case, looking back, like you say it, it's definitely more obvious now, but.

Yeah, unfortunately, they're like, no, we only, we only diagnose children, not adults. 

Jami Shapiro: Because they think, they think, they think it does. Just like I did when I found out. I'm like, okay, I am 45. Why does it matter? And you know, I I, I always bring up examples, but I had another guest on my podcast who, he's Alan P.

Brown. He's the ADHD Crusher. And he was, he goes out and he coaches coaches and he does presentations. And he said he had an 87-year-old man in his audience. Who came up to him and said that he had been diagnosed with ADHD at 87 years ago, and he said it was the best seven years of his life. Hmm. And so I say to people, at what point do you wanna stop growing or understanding yourself better or putting the pieces together?

And you know, one of the beauties of ADHD [00:47:00] is our natural curiosity. So, you know, we do wanna learn about things that interest us. And so learning about ADHD and its impact you know, again, it's just, there's a forgiveness that comes, a gentleness that comes with yourself, that grace. I love the word grace.

I mean, I hate to use it, but I love it. It's such a good word. 

Michelle Rowlinson: No. Yeah. And if there's a woman sort of listening who suspects that she might be ADHD, but feels like you've said it's too late or it's not serious enough, what would you want her to hear? Is there something specific that you think she should hear right now?

Jami Shapiro: I think that if, if me, if she's open to medication, then you know, please find a physician or a therapist or a psychiatrist that is an adult that is understands ADHD. And that's, that's key that you have to find someone who has studied it and understands it and doesn't think it's not a thing. And I would just say it is a thing.

It's absolutely a thing. And if you have a child that's being diagnosed, or a [00:48:00] grandchild, or a sibling, again, it's highly, highly heritable. And I would just encourage you to learn, because when you learn it, you know, there's just no point where understanding yourself isn't going to be helpful. So that, and then, you know, to your point too, that grief and that relief, like, you know, all we can do is adjust our attitude.

This is, this is what we've got. Where do we go from here and where can I lean into where this is a superpower and where can I understand my energy level? Kind of like a woman in her, you know, fifties who is, you know, I think what happens and you know, you should talk more about the menopause and behavior, but just there is also more of a freedom.

Like I'm not taking care of kids anymore. I don't have the same responsibilities. I get to figure out who I am. And I think that's a double conversation, both for women generally. Neurotypical women, right? And And neurodiverse women. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah. We as women, we just don't look after ourselves. And this is where I say perimenopause, [00:49:00] menopause is such a positive time because we.

Of an age. Okay. Sometimes we're bookended with children and elderly parents, but also we can be of an age where our children are older and we do have that time now where we can find ourselves again. 'cause I'd always, I always try and also say, don't try and get that person. Who you were before because you, you are evolving.

You want to mm-hmm. Literally look forward mm-hmm. And say, you are right. Who am I now? And try new things. And it can be a really fun time sort of finding, finding the new you or the, the. Future you or whichever way you want to sort of put it. 

Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. I love that. That seems like such a good way to end our podcast.

I dunno how you feel about that. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Yeah, no, I exactly that. And where can, where can people find you? 

Jami Shapiro: Oh, thank you. So I think you can listen to my podcast. Grandma has [00:50:00] ADHD or you can find me at jamishapiro.me. That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P as in Paul, I-R-O.me, because believe it or not, I could not get my own domain name.

I could not get Jami shapiro.com, but yes. Yeah, that's true. But I think the dot me is so perfect because that is exactly. Who I am, I am living authentically. So that's where you can find out about my coaching and my book. And I'm gonna have an online program for women who are discovering their ADHD. It kind of combines that self-acceptance with decluttering and downsizing, because that's been missing from the downsizing right sizing conversation.

So that's where you can find me. And what about you, Michelle? Where can my listeners find you and your podcast? 

Michelle Rowlinson: So my podcast is Menopause The Real Deal on Spotify and Apple. I'm Michelle Rowson, R-O-W-L-I-N-S-O-N. On Facebook or Michelle [00:51:00] underscore Rollings on TikTok or my website, which is panacea pos.co.uk.

But obviously I'll have your links in my show notes as well. So 

Jami Shapiro: the same, the same. It was really great. I'm sorry if I dominate, you know, 'cause I'm gonna get off the call and I'm gonna ruminate. Oh, I, you know, I couldn't shut up, you know, so for those of you who are listening, it's very real. It, it, it's, I'm keeping it real.

Michelle Rowlinson: No, you're absolutely fine. I think we I think we are quite equal, so don't worry. 

Jami Shapiro: Oh well I appreciate it. It was great and I definitely wanna have you back on my podcast 'cause I would love to explore autism. I really haven't gotten into it and I know that A-U-D-H-D is is also more and more people are discovering that as well.

And I would love to, to learn more about it. 

Michelle Rowlinson: Brilliant. And I will just add for those in, in the UK that if you are suspecting there's long waits on the NHS, but if you go through the right to choose and I. Personally chose ADHD 360 and you sort of fill out the form and then take it to your [00:52:00] GP and your GP will then do a referral and that's a quicker process.

But just check that your GP does do shared care. Mm-hmm. Because that's important because once you get a diagnosis, your GP surgery needs to be on board with shared care, so then the prescriptions can then be moved over to your GP surgery. But that's just another way of getting a diagnosis in the UK.

Jami Shapiro: That's awesome. And I will just say too that going to your general physician here occupational therapy is a, is something that if medicine isn't available to you a lot of us can, can get occupational therapy for our ADHD, which would then be covered by insurance. So, and then of course there's ADHD coaching and all of that for when you learn about it.

But I'm, I'm, you know, I actually, I, I'm gonna totally TMI on you and tell you that I have not been quote unquote, formally diagnosed either. My child's been diagnosed. Two of my children have been diagnosed, my mother's been diagnosed, my father has it. I, I have a, a, a physician that actually gives me Wellbutrin, which is an off-label for a DG, and it actually works well enough for me that I've gone with it.

But I [00:53:00] would never hesitate to go and get that formal diagnosis if I needed the medication to, to do better. So that's was ATM i. We probably could have just stopped it, but here we are. 

Michelle Rowlinson: That's fine. Well, I, well thank you ever so much for being on menopause, the real deal as well. 

Jami Shapiro: Thank you for being on.

Grandma has ADHD. 

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